Three quotes
Quote one:
"Any restriction on free speech is dangerous. You start by saying people should not speak and you end up with burning people at the stake. Free speech is an absolute, it is universal."Quote two:
"I'm flabbergasted that people who claim to be intellectuals invite extremists in the name of free speech to give them a platform and let them air their perverted view."Quote one is from a little racist fuckwit. Quote two is from a survivor of the Rwandan genocide (both via The Independent). I am startled to find that the latter comes across as more of a fascist than the former.
I could write a lot on this topic, but my stance in nicely summed up by a third quote from the same article. Luke Tryl, the person responsible for organising the debate, says:
"David Irving and Nick Griffin have awful and abhorrent views but the best way to defeat those views is through debate. I remain committed to the principle that free speech has to prevail. I really worry about how the far right has been able to portray themselves as free-speech martyrs and I hope that this sort of debate will help dispel that myth – to show that the liberal mainstream are prepared to take them on and beat them in debate."Exactly. Let Irving, Griffin, and any one who holds similar views to spout their crap. And then you can use the opportunity to show why what they are saying is wrong, ignorant, unsubstantiated and, well, crap.
Labels: Free Speech, Freedom
posted by The Nameless Libertarian @ 9:47 am
4 Comments
4 Comments:
Why don't you attack Nick Griffin's, and the BNP's, policies, instead of just throwing slurs. You call him ignorant, wrong and a fuckwit, but your post does nothing to explain why. Read the BNP's mini-manifesto, especially on Immigration & Identity, which is presumably the area that gets you so riled up.
The BNP's policy is to deport all the two million plus who are in the UK illegally. Great, I agree with that, and to my mind the 'fuckwits' are those who want to grant amnesty or ignore the problem and pretend they're dealing with it!
The BNP's policy is to stop all new immigration except for exceptional cases. Well, at least they have the honesty of combining this with a policy to exit the EU. All our mainstream parties, including the Conservatives, talk tough on immigration, knowing full well there's little they can do as we're signed up to the EU's free movement of people (which is why Cameron only goes on about non-EU immigration, which doesn't matter considering the EU wants another 20 million non-EU immmigrants to come in)
The people you should be attacking, imho, are the violent thugs who tried to shut down the debate through violence, intimidation and breaking the law (ie. breaking into private property). Isn't the left able to win a debate with Nick Griffin? Perhaps they're afraid he speaks for millions in expressing concerns over uncontrolled immigration and the deterioration of our society - a debate the left continues to suppress.
Let's have it all out in debate. After last night, I'm disgusted by the left-wing thugs who use violence and intimidation instead of reasoned debate.
If you read the post, Andrew, I do criticise those who won't let Griffin and Irving speak. If you read the post, Andrew, you'll see that I'm surprised that Griffin comes across as much less of fascist in this confrontation than those who are protesting. And I call for a debate precisely because I think those on the left, as you dub us (and it is a long time since I have been called left wing), have nothing to fear and should be able to easily defeat Griffin and Irving in debate.
So whilst I use my right of free speech to criticise the violent protestors, I also use my right to free speech to call Griffin “wrong”, “ignorant” and a “fuckwit.” The personal views of the BNP leader are astonishingly ignorant, as even the briefest glance at his Wikipedia page shows. This is the man who called the Holocaust the Holohoax. This is the man who refers to Islam as a “wicked and vicious faith”. This is the man who only got round to rejecting anti-semitism in 2005. This is the man who met the leader of the Ku Klux Klan. Careful who you support there, Andrew, because Griffin has some seriously fucked up views.
And the BNP’s policies on Immigration are tired, ill-thought out and ignorant. The major parties are all opposed to illegal immigration – the give away is in the prefix “illegal”. The BNP’s policy, however, which can be best summed up as “send ‘em all back home”, is staggeringly naïve both practically and morally. How are you going to find the 2 million (if that is the correct figure) illegal immigrants? They aren’t going to present themselves at the local cop shop to be deported, are they? And what happens when you do find them, but find that some of their native countries won’t take them back? Or if they are being sent back to rape, to torture, to murder? Are you just going to wash your hands of them? The reality is much more complicated than the BNP would have you believe.
And as for stopping all immigration except in exceptional circumstances – well, the fact is we need immigration. You may find it an unpalatable truth, but with a ageing population and with a dearth of people will to do the lower paying, often menial jobs that immigrants traditionally (rightly or wrongly) fill, we need immigration. What are you going to do about those problems? What are you going to do to ensure the economy still functions? Movement of labour is part of the modern global economy. And what are you going to do about the fact that around 400,000 people left the UK last year? Are you going to prevent emigration as well as immigration?
Nick Griffin is a racist, he is ignorant and he is wrong. The BNP appeal to the baser instincts of the electorate, but their policies fail to pass even the most basic moral and practical tests. I am against those who won’t let Griffin speak. But I am also against what Griffin, Irving and their ilk say. And I have no problem, in either case, with saying so.
Thanks for a thoughtful counter-post, which leaves me with a lot to think about. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Griffin is wrong, ignorant and a fuckwit, and you make some good points this is the case. Let's also agree all political parties are against illegal immigration and, in practice, there's nothing we can do about the 2 million+ already in the UK illegally (afterall, even if they all turned themselves in, we don't have the facilities, as Spike Milligan might have said. Our detention centres have a total capacity of just a few thousand).
This leaves the legal emigration within the EU - an EU wanting to expand even into the Middle East and possibly Russia. Nowhere in mainstream political debate do I see a serious discussion about the shockingly rapid loss of English culture - although I do hear arguments there's no such thing.
As someone who has lived in continental Europe and experienced foreign culture in a deep way, I have only slowly come to realise what it is that makes my homeland so special. I've questioned whether this is just the rose-tinted view of someone approaching middle-age, but I don't think it is. As an island, we have developed separately from much of Europe.
We (if I may use that term) have a foundational, almost invisible, basis on the idea of 'free unless prohibited' and 'nobody is above the law'. And yet, we're about to throw these out, along with our uncodified constitution, for the EU's 'prohibited unless permitted' and 'some powerful people are above the law' (see Europol's immunity, for example). Despite protestations it's being protected, our system of common law is under threat from the EU's Civil Code, as is our trial-by-jury/adversarial system by the EU's inquisitorial system. And these are just the legal issues. In the political sphere, even the unelected European Commission admits to the EU's democratic deficit.
There was, and still is in pockets, a civility and charm about English life. I grew up in rural areas, used to life based on a huge amount of consideration for others. This is rapidly disappearing, in my experience. In my lifetime I am seeing not just change, but the destruction of a world I knew and loved. Perhaps the West is in irreversible decline, but I wish to do what I can to leave a good world to my children.
With mainstream politicians lying (e.g. "the Lisbon Treaty is not the EU Constitution") in our faces and not recognising what almost all the people I talk to recognise in private, who is there to turn to? If the BNP is led by a fuckwit, and UKIP is a joke, who can I turn to? I would like to think Her Majesty would have the guts to refuse Royal Assent on the Lisbon Treaty, but it's just wishful thinking.
I'm not 'against' Europe - I deeply admire Europeans, our shared heritage, aswell as our differences. But I am against the destruction of the England I grew up in.
Any thoughts you have may help provoke further thought and reflection in me, as my mind is by no means made up. In fact, politically, I'm lost.
You're not alone in feeling politically lost, given the main parties occupy such a small space of the political spectrum. There are some flashpoints of disagreements - ID cards being a good example. But overall, there are depressingly few differences between the main parties. And the issue of Europe is a good example.
It is interesting to consider that this post, and the subsequent comments, have been about how we should let the far right speak, how we should let them debate. Because if the opposition case is strong enough, then they should have nothing to fear. We can apply exactly the same logic to the EU. We should be having a great debate about it because, if those who are for the EU have a strong enough case, they should relish the debate. Instead, what do we have? Nada. Squat. Zip. Radio silence from the main parties on this one. We are sleepwalking into further integration with the EU because no-one is talking about it.
I don't know what the solution is, in truth, although I think the more people who are challenging the broad political consensus, the better. And I don't know whether the Britain you grew up in can be saved, but again - if you are making the case for what you believe it, it is more likely to happen.
What I do know is that the simplistic, ignorant and racist policies of the BNP are not the answer.
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