Monday, July 18, 2011

Christanity, Conformity and Freedom

Over at the Orphans of Liberty, luikkerland seems to be proposing something really rather illiberal - conformity to Christanity. While the bulk of the article is a long and not especially interesting story of his/her encounter with the sort of unthinking moron we're all aware of but try to avoid contact with, the first paragraph is alarming in its implications. Let's take a look:
I was interested to see Mr Higham’s piece on writing a constitution as a task in a process to right the country. I don’t disagree, but having a constitution by itself is not enough. A constitution becomes unstuck if the people are too corrupt, distracted or fearful to uphold it. What is required in the first instance is the instruction of the people (and I actually feel that people have gone short of being preached to) so that they can tell the difference between what is natural and what is the constructed elaborate fake. A constitution should be a statement of the bleeding obvious, but too many Britons don’t know what the obvious is. Look at this example of confusion, for instance: some people believe that the death penalty is barbaric, and that abortion is civilised. Look at how many do not understand that Liberty comes from the prohibition of corruption and vice – the means by which society is undermined and manipulated by those encouraging and introducing it – applied equally across all parts of society.
First up, constitutions. I can see the appeal, and think they do represent a potential tool in the fight for liberty. But they are also open to interpretation at the same time as being very much snapshots of the period in which they were created (a point that further broadens the potential for biased interpretations). Furthermore constitutions can just be shams whatever the rhetoric contained in it, such as the 1936 constitution of the Soviet Union.

So, in a sense, luikkerland is right - constitutions need the backing and proactive support of the people. And that people needs to be intelligent, engaged, committed to liberty and to tolerating those who do not share their viewpoints. Which is where luikkerland falls short in his analysis. The only real tolerance (s)he allows for is a tolerance contained within their own Christian prejuidices. Which is almost by definition illiberal.

But let's unpack this a bit - let's look at why luikkerland's ideas are illiberal. First up, there seems to be the suggestions that we should be preached at. This seems extraordinary to me given we're only just getting over 13 years of Nu Labour rule where we constantly preached by the son of a priest and by a Christian Prime Minister. But, no doubt, that won't count for luikkerland - even though Blair has now converted to Catholicism. What's the reason behind this need for preaching? The fact that people need to understand the "bleeding obvious" rather than the "constructed elaborate fake". Unfortunately, the bleeding obvious seems to be predicated on the deeply divisive and not at all credible idea that we are "the ultimate creation of God". Which is, of course, a "constructed elaborate fake" for many people in this country.

It is pointless to ask Christians for proof of their beliefs - quite rightly, they point to the notion that their religion is based on faith, so if proof was forthcoming then faith would be fatally undermined. But they also need to understand that fate is not something you can turn on and off. I cannot choose to have faith in God; on balance, using my faculties of reason and critical thinking, I see no way in which God can exist. So to expect me to subscribe to the notion that liberty is about the "prohibtion of corruption and vice" is deeply troubling, especially if the concepts of corruption and vice are seen through an explicitly Christian lens - since Christianity is far from tolerant.

A Christian viewpoint might see homosexuality, sex outside of wedlock and blasphemy as examples of corruption and vice, yet for me there is nothing wrong with any of those concepts. Furthermore, even on issues where there might be a wider consensus of what constitutes vice outside of the Christian faith - such as the use of prostitutes or people having extra-marital affairs - what right does anyone have to suppress actions between consenting adults based on the long, contradictory teachings of a book written millenia ago? True tolerance, true liberalism should allow people to conduct themselves in whatever way they like as long as that behaviour dies not fall foul of the Harm Principle.

Luikkerland cites the "confusion" people have over the death penalty being a "barbaric" and abortion "civilised". This is quite a common Christian fundamentalist simplication of these two highly complex moral issues. As someone who is pro-choice, I believe that in certain early stages of the pregnancy a woman should have the right to choose whether or not they terminate that pregnancy. This does not make me pro-abortion or into a believer that abortion is civilised - rather, it subscribes me to the thoroughly liberal view that the state should be restricted as much as possible when it comes to our bodies and what happens to them. Which is why I am also opposed to the death penalty, which is perhaps the ultimate example in states physically intervening in the lives of their citizens. There is no confusion here, there is consistency - it is about limiting the state's right to interfere in the lives and choices of its citizens. You might argue that the state should interfere in these circumstances and control both whether a woman has a baby and whether a criminal is murdered by the state - that's fine, but such arguments have little to do with liberalism.

And there is a splendid irony in luikkerland decrying the perceived manipulation of others at the same time as advocating preaching to spread the word of his/her own chosen dogma. The whole concept reminds me of the notorious assertion by Rousseau that people should be forced to be free. Luikkerland is fine with you being free, but just to clarify - freedom means conforming to what (s)he believes in.

Liberty is about tolerance. It is about finding ways in which differing conceptions of the good can live in peaceful co-existence with each other. It isn't about conformity, whether that conformity be to a socialist or Christian dogma. Don't get me wrong, I think that luikkerland should be able to write what they want where they want, and I don't see any problem with such illiberal bilge being on a website at least nominally committed to liberty. But I do think that those of us genuinely committed to the cause of liberty should not be afraid to call this for what it is - social conservatism drifting toward the reactionary, with a healthy dose of Christian fundamentalism thrown into the mix. Freedom it most certainly is not.

Update: Longrider says something similar over at the Orphans of Liberty; unsurprisingly, I agree with what he says - especially this:
Liberty does not need religion to survive. Religion does tend to rely on liberty though.

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18 Comments:

At 2:20 pm , Blogger Trooper Thompson said...

I think you're being a little uncharitable, as I'm sure Lukkerland isn't quite as guilty as charged.

I don't see any fundamentalism lurking beneath the surface. I think he/she is mainly mourning the loss of Christianity as a set of shared principles. These principles insofar as they insist upon honesty - not lying, not stealing, not committing fraud etc - are necessary for a free market and a free society to function properly. The issues of personal sexual conduct are somewhat different.

With regard to the constitution and the comments on natural law, I take his point that the former should be grounded in 'Judeo-Christian' principles, although I would express it differently. I don't see any contradiction between this and libertarianism per se, especially not the natural law tradition, although utilitarians might get their knickers in a twist.

The idea of the Rule of Law as the over-arching power, i.e. above kingly - or governmental - power, is one that libertarians can embrace. What it means is that the king etc must obey the law the same as everyone else. This principle comes from the Church. It was assailed by the rise of absolutism, which claimed that a king has a divine right to rule, and thus can do no wrong and can make the law what he will. The machiavellian notion that different rules of morality apply to princes is related to this.

Whereas natural law does not need to be grounded on a belief in God, it has to be grounded on something. One way or the other doesn't make much difference, such matters being essentially stuff for the prologue, rather than the main body of text.

As an atheist(?) you may be concerned by any rise of political consciousness amongst Bible-bashers, but I would counter by saying:
A) Much of the negative side of Christianity lives on without a belief in God to temper it in the guise of 'progressive' leftist puritanism. The problem is not Christianity but that puritan mentality.
B) The Christian view and the libertarian view are overlapping in some very important areas, such as the importance of individuality and personal responsibility.
C)Christianity has, like so much else, been terribly tainted by the poison of socialism in the last 100 plus years, so if a more rightwing version can assert itself, this could well be a good thing.
D) Finally I would say this country needs people to stand up and resist the ever-growing totalitarian state, and if Christians can be brought to understand the politics and economics correctly, they could be an important force for good.

 
At 2:49 pm , Blogger The Nameless Libertarian said...

TT,

Clearly we've got a different interpretation of what lukkerland has to say, since I see a lot of fundamentalism lurking behind what reads as a demand for people to adhere to the author's Christian principles. A perfectly valid position, some would say - but not a liberal or libertarian one.

I think the issue of sexual conduct is crucial when considering the contribution Christanity can make to the cause of liberty. If it is willing to go against its own teachings and accept diversity in sexual behaviour, then maybe it has something to offer. But Christians, in my experience anyway, don't seem great at doing that.

The notion that our legal system and moral code is Judeo-Christian is based on a highly selective reading of history. You may as well say that it is based on Athenian-Roman principles, since that it as true as the Judeo-Christian claim.

Also, I think you misread what Christanity actually says - it isn't that everyone must obey the law, it is that everyone must obey the word of God. Of course, we need to interpret the word of God, and who can do that? Oh, wait, the Church. So rather than blindly obey the state, we should do the same with the church. Now that's something that libertarians definitely can't get behind. And careful with your use of Machiavelli - there is a distinction between morality and virtue in his thinking.

I don't see a great deal of overlap between Christanity in anything other than its most anondyne forms and libertarianism. Personal responsibility may be an area of common ground, but things such as the desire of evangelical Christians to convert others to ther viewpoint is not libertarian. Christanity may have been tainted by socialism over the past 100 years or so, but it has always been its own special brand of poison in the centuries before that.

TNL

 
At 3:28 pm , Blogger Trooper Thompson said...

"If it is willing to go against its own teachings and accept diversity in sexual behaviour, then maybe it has something to offer."

I disagree. All that is required is for Christians not to seek to impose their sexual morality on others. They do not have to approve of it. This is no different than someone who believes in drug legalisation simultaneously disapproving of being a junky.

"The notion that our legal system and moral code is Judeo-Christian is based on a highly selective reading of history. You may as well say that it is based on Athenian-Roman principles, since that it as true as the Judeo-Christian claim."

I don't see how one could differentiate a separate set of principles from Athenian and Roman origins that aren't bound up with the teaching of the Catholic Church. Aristotle was central to Thomist thought, and the Church was based in Rome. If you consult (I believe) the earliest attempt to write down the English Law, that being Alfred's Book of Dome, you will find it is mainly lifted from the Bible.

"Of course, we need to interpret the word of God, and who can do that? Oh, wait, the Church. So rather than blindly obey the state, we should do the same with the church."

I don't think Christians blindly obey the Church, do you? Besides there has always been a division between secular power and church power. These two things have been in conflict as much as they've been in harmony over the last ten centuries.

"And careful with your use of Machiavelli - there is a distinction between morality and virtue in his thinking. "

Indeed, but using the accepted definition of morality, my comment stands - chapter XVIII is a good example.

"things such as the desire of evangelical Christians to convert others to ther viewpoint is not libertarian"

I would say it's neither libertarian nor anti-libertarian. How is it different from trying to convert someone to, say, a love of opera? It all depends on how it is done. If you tied someone up and made them listen to Wagner's Ring Cycle, that would be one thing, but explaining your own view and lending the CD would be another.

"it has always been its own special brand of poison in the centuries before that."

Ah. Probably wasting my time then.

 
At 3:59 pm , Anonymous Timac said...

I was raised a Catholic and have had a mixed-up relationship with that Religion my whole life but my morality is loosely based on Judeo-christian teachings, I guess.

Anyway, in Christian terms I've never understood prohibitionist christian attitudes. I think there is something decidedly unchristian about the rules of the amish, for example.

Reason being: We are taught that we have to see vice and sin and choose the path of God. It has to be a choice.

 
At 4:03 pm , Blogger The Nameless Libertarian said...

TT,

First up, some Christians do attempt to impose their sexual mores on others (just as their teaching demands) - witness Christian programmes to "cure" homosexuality and the opposition to civil partnerships from many Christians. It isn't that they don't approve, it is that they actively want to discriminate against those with different sexual orientations.

Your comment about the Judeo-Christian/Athenian-Roman descriptions precisely makes my point. There is no point in saying "Judeo-Christian" - you may as well say "historical". Actually, the latter would be far more accurate than the former.

And some Christians do blindly obey the church. When did the concept of papal infallibility for Catholics end? In the last decade or so? And what about the spread of AIDS because that church decides to order its followers not to use contraception? Blind obedience is there, like it or not.

As for Machiavelli, I said careful of your use of him - not that you are wrong. In order to do that I would have to understand what you mean by the "accepted defintion" or morality (although this does have the potential to be a massive, irrelevant diversion to the topic at hand).

There is a difference between explaining to someone that you think they should listen to Wagner and an evangelical Christian telling someone that they will burn in hell forever for not sharing their beliefs. It may be a subtle distinction, but it is important and relevant here given the author of the post at OoL is talking about manipulation by others. Evangelical Christians have their own brand of manipulation, y'know.

And as for wasting your time, well, did you really think I would blindly agree with you? Do you think that my atheism is built on shallow foundations just waiting to be toppled by the right comment on this website? I mean, what would make you think that you're not wasting your time? Isn't there value in having a debate without expecting convergence of opinion?

TNL

 
At 4:11 pm , Blogger Longrider said...

I've responded to this piece over at Orphans. it will appear tomorrow. I've taken a slightly different tack - but in essence we agree on this one.

 
At 4:18 pm , Blogger The Nameless Libertarian said...

Longrider,

Look forward to reading it. If I remember I'll put a link in from the post here when it appears.

TNL

 
At 4:39 pm , Blogger Longrider said...

It looks like I might have made a confusing comment - it was Luikkerland's piece that I was responding to at OoL - I hadn't read yours. I think I'll do a link from there back to here.

 
At 4:43 pm , Blogger The Nameless Libertarian said...

Sorry, now I am confused - do you agree with Luikkerland or my good self?

TNL

 
At 4:51 pm , Blogger Longrider said...

Your good self. When I said I was responding to "this" article, I meant Luikkerlands. On reading your reply I thought maybe you meant that I was responding to yours. D'oh!

 
At 5:01 pm , Blogger The Nameless Libertarian said...

Ok, that's what I thought. I think we have arrived at clarity ;)

TNL

 
At 5:28 pm , Blogger Trooper Thompson said...

TNL,

I certainly don't expect you to 'blindly agree' with me.

I wasn't attempting to convince you out of your atheism, I was arguing against the view that Christianity is contrary to libertarianism, but if your view is that Christianity is a form of poison, there's not much point bringing up Thomas Aquinas and the natural law.

 
At 6:24 pm , Blogger Longrider said...

I think we have arrived at clarity ;)

Good. it looks like I was having a senior moment there.

One small point about the issue of us publishing such an article - James responded to that rather well, I think. We provide a platform. if people write something that is illiberal, then they can expect some flak and Luikkerland is getting some of that for it ;)

 
At 9:22 pm , Blogger The Nameless Libertarian said...

TT,

The Inquisition, the Salem witch hunts, the numerous wars fought with such lethal intensity between different Christian factions, the Crusades and the Catholic paedophile scandal - surely it isn't too controversial to say that there has Christanity has been poison before its alleged infection with socialism?

Longrider,

Entirely agree. The article should be published so people can object to it. And it is nice that it does get published. At certain other mega blogs (naming no names) it certainly wouldn't.

TNL

 
At 10:32 pm , Blogger James Higham said...

Liberty does not need religion to survive. Religion does tend to rely on liberty though.

Other way around:

Liberty needs the JudCh tradition to survive. Religion does tend to rely on this tradition though - Islam is only tolerated in this country because the JudCh tradition was tolerant enough to leave those pushing for it to remain here unexecuted.

 
At 10:27 am , Blogger Longrider said...

Given that Islam also exists in predominately non Christian countries, I'd dispute that.

 
At 10:32 am , Blogger The Nameless Libertarian said...

I'd dispute it as well, but for different reasons. Religion needs freedom as freedom allows for the toleration of pluralism in society, including a plurality of religion. And that freedom, or liberalism, comes from the Enlightenment, which was in part a response to the religious intolerance and absolutism that is part of the history of Judeo-Christian tradition.

TNL

 
At 8:36 am , Blogger The Nameless Libertarian said...

I also love the concept of Muslims being able to remain "unexecuted". Well done, Judeo-Christian tradition, for not executing people! The Nobel Peace Prize is, no doubt, in the post.

 

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